More Concerning God....

Discussion in 'The Open Forum' started by Michael Llenos, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Michael Llenos

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    Tonight's dialectical musings on the ontological argument...

    1. If God doesn't exist,
    God cannot exist.*

    2. But God can exist,**
    Therefore, God must exist.

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    Footnotes:

    *E.g. existence cannot support perfection.

    **E.g. 1. It is possible for the universe to have a creator. 2. One absolute property of existence (as a whole) includes perfection. (Spinoza: There is nothing stopping God from being real.)
     
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  2. Michael Llenos

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    The Onto. Arguments:

    Anselm. If God exists in the mind, he must exist in reality.

    Descartes. Perfection equates existence.

    Spinoza. There is no cause for God to not exist.

    My own. Only an all powerful God can stop an all powerful God from existing. But to stop the 2nd God from existing you would need a 3rd, and a 4th to stop the 3rd, and so on for all eternity etc.
     
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  3. Michael Llenos

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    For a supreme God not to exist, you would need an infinite number of supreme Gods to exist to make this happen. This is impossible. Therefore, a supreme God exists.
     
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  4. Michael Llenos

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    If you're all-powerful, you cannot be a creation of the human mind. Therefore, God exists in reality.
     
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  5. Michael Llenos

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    The last one was not mine but rather Anselm's. My bad.
     
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  6. lynnmosher

    lynnmosher Super Moderator
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    Hmmm...interesting thoughts, Michael.

    I hope you'll hop over to Meet and Greet and introduce yourself so everyone will know you are here and can welcome you. :)
     
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  7. ChristAddict

    ChristAddict Member

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    You're right: if God can exist, then He must exist.

    In fact, that the thought of God could even flash through the mind of man is a pointer to the existence of God.

    God has deliberately cast the thoughts about Himself across the hearts of men, so they can think about Him and ultimately come to the realization of His existence and, most especially, to the saving knowledge of His Son Jesus Christ.
     
  8. ChristAddict

    ChristAddict Member

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    For to be all-powerful is to be able to create a universe like ours such that the created universe could still amount to the least of things that could be created.

    The power of God can never be exhausted, even if God decides to create better, bigger and grander universes apart from the one we are in.
     
  9. Michael Llenos

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    #9 Michael Llenos, Jul 15, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
    ChristAddict,
    Thanks for the positive replies. I believe the same as you. However, it is quite possible for someone to play the evil-advocate. For example, the skeptic might ask: 'If God's power can never be exhausted, why did he rest on the Sabbath in Genesis?' And: 'If Jesus is part-God, why did he get tired, at times, in the New Testament?' (I will reply in the next post.)
     
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  10. Michael Llenos

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    #10 Michael Llenos, Jul 15, 2017
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    ChristAddict,
    It's simple to answer the skeptic's questions. 1. God wasn't tired when he rested. He was simply, passively overseeing his creation. And, 2. The mediator between God and mankind (the God-Man, or Jesus) is fully man and fully God. [So like you said: God's power can never be exhausted, even if he created bigger universes than our own.]
     
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  11. Michael Llenos

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    #11 Michael Llenos, Jul 15, 2017
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    ChristAddict,
    But to really settle the score, one could say that God is infinite in character. Meaning, a finite mind (like what we all have as regular people) cannot understand the infinite. So God's power is a mystery to normal man. And that's why we need a God-Man as a mediator that can relate to both God and Man. So we need Jesus.
     
  12. Michael Llenos

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    #12 Michael Llenos, Jul 15, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
    ChristAddict,
    Please forgive me for being the evil-advocate. Sometimes I like to look at both sides of the coin to get at the truth better. I, however, believe God's truth is superior. As God says to spur us on in the Old Testament: "This generation is wise in evildoing, but foolish when it comes to goodness." I.e. something I remembered God saying in the Bible. (The sentence was paraphrased from Amos; I think, if I can remember correctly?)
     
  13. Michael Llenos

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    #13 Michael Llenos, Jul 15, 2017
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    ChristAddict,
    When I said God's truth is superior, I meant: your's and all other Christian's (& monotheist's) and God's own truth. But other people have faded into such wickedness that reasoning with them is very hard to do. That is why I try to look at both sides of an argument sometimes.
     
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  14. Michael Llenos

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    #14 Michael Llenos, Jul 15, 2017
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    By the way, the term God-Man (for Jesus) comes from book 10 of Augustine's Confessions. I was just borrowing it from St. Augustine. I do not think it is said directly, though, but rather it is implied.
     
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  15. ChristAddict

    ChristAddict Member

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    Thanks for your reply, Michael. In fact, I like the way you try to look into the minds and determine their possible questions about God's existence and its proofs.
     
  16. ChristAddict

    ChristAddict Member

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    Yes, I perfectly understand you.
     
  17. ChristAddict

    ChristAddict Member

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    You're right, Michael. Looking at the both sides of the argument helps us to properly, with the help of the Holy Spirit, give answers to skeptics' questions.
     
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  18. Njoku Vivian Chidinma

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    'Rest' in Genesis 2:2-3 is gotten from the Hebrew word 'Shabat', it is also observed by Jews. It means 'to end'. Therefore REST does not necessarily mean 'TIRED'. The Bibles states 'the Word became flesh'. He took human form so he should sleep like humans sleep.
     
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  19. Njoku Vivian Chidinma

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    Existence does not define God because he created the heavens and the earth. Time is His tool not the other way round.
     
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  20. Michael Llenos

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    #20 Michael Llenos, Jul 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
    Njoku said:
    [Rest' in Genesis 2:2-3 is gotten from the Hebrew word 'Shabat', it is also observed by Jews. It means 'to end'. Therefore REST does not necessarily mean 'TIRED'. The Bibles states 'the Word became flesh'. He took human form so he should sleep like humans sleep.]

    When I said the God-Man is fully God and fully man, I meant although Jesus is part-divine, he could get tired because he is also a man. So I do agree with you there.

    As for God the Creator getting tired, I was just implying what an atheist or agnostic may impute or attribute to the Creator. Shabat is also why there exists a 4th commandment in the Decalogue. God rather rested from all things than ended all things. For if he ended all things we would all be dead. And if he ended his participation in the universe, you are ascribing Deism to God. (Or that he made the universe like an all self functioning Clock.) And if you are a Jewish, Christian or Muslim worshipper, you cannot be a Deist. Or at least in the traditional sense.

    Njoku also said:
    [Existence does not define God because he created the heavens and the earth. Time is His tool not the other way round.]

    I agree that time is God's tool. Time is not infinite in length, otherwise God would not be the creator of time. But God is the creator of all things. So because God is the creator of time, their existed a First Cause of time. This First Cause (or First Mover) is what we know to be God. So time is not only God's tool but it is also his creation. For God to always have used time as his tool in the past, he would have had to create time itself. So I agree with you.

    And as far as your belief that existence does not define God, I rather disagree. Any college Philosophy 101 course will teach you Descartes' ontological argument: 'perfection includes existence.' Since the time of Decartes, this ontological argument has never been bettered.